What would you do?

[fleetwood]

We ordered a baby thingy (a small piece of netting to display toys on the wall) from an online site (not an Actinicy).

The item weighs around 90g, and was sent rec del (total postage cost under £2).

The item cost around £4.50 - the postage was an additional £6.95!!

Personally, I wouldn't have placed the order discovering this, but the wife did!!

So I go to install the thing, and discover its faulty (its supposed to be 1mx1mx1.4m, but the 2 equal length sides differ by 10cm, making it impossible to fit correctly).

I email the site, and say I wish to return it for full refund as its faulty, and add a side note, that I think the postage charged is excessive (over 300% actual cost).

They have asked me to send it back for inspection, and have said this about the postage:

In answer to you query about carriage costs, I totally understand that you
might feel that the carriage cost seems high compared to the low cost of the
item. However, our carriage fees cover not only the postage costs, but also
administration costs, packaging, and to cover the cost of sending a member
of staff to the post office to send via post. Unfortunately all these costs
add up and we have to cover it by setting the rates as we do. We do clearly
state our postage costs, so customers do have the choice not to order from
us.

OK, we're all in business, and I understand admin costs - but to say it includes the cost of sending someone to the post office is pushing it IMO!!!

I intend to send it back, ask for a full refund, plus £6.95, being my return postage costs (incl my packaging, and the cost of my trip to the post office).

What would you do, and what do you think my legal stance is if I decide to dig my heels in?

[PJ ENG]

I would not wast my time, move on and make some more money :)

P+P is just that Post and Packing it all adds up.

[leehack]

I think you are a decent genuine guy Martin, so turn the decision around and make yourself the vendor and them the customer. Whatever you think is reasonable as the vendor, go for that.

Legally, the product doesn't do what it said it would, so postage should be refunded along with a full product refund, unless this is a faulty one and others are fine, in which case they should refund your postage to get it back to them and replace it accordingly.

[brian.mc]

As the product appears to be faulty, you should have no problems getting a refund or replacement.

However, regarding the postage costs, if they were clearly displayed on their site before purchase, then by placing your order you accepted these costs, just as you accepted the price of the product - after all you wouldn't expect to get that at cost, would you?

I would tend to agree with their statement regarding the carriage costs - it would seem that they have costed every aspect of their operation. Time is money, and they will have to pay the employee's wages for the time spent travelling to/from the post office, plus the time spent there. If a vehicle was used for the trip to the post office then you have the running costs of that as well.

[parklifeclothes]

Personally I would be peeved, but would put it down to experience of shopping online (especially for baby hardware items), now and again things aren't what you expect, arrive broken or don't fit.
As an expectant dad you've got it all to look forward to, baby car seat won't fit the new car, buggy wheel falls of everytime you unfold it. Just enjoy being a dad and don't spend time/energy on something you probably didn't need anyway!!!

Again with the carriage costs if they warn it will be this/that much it is up to them how much they charge as you (the wife) has agreed to it by accepting their terms and conds. If it really gets you, next time you do the take away run, pocket the wife's change:D , that'll show her!!

[RuralWeb]

Ahhh women and babies - the two should never be allowed a credit card. Been there done that - but as the postage was clearly stated on the site and the T&C were agreed when the order was placed then there is not much you can do. You will be able to get a refund for the faulty goods though (check thier T&C online and see what they say).

Interestingly I always say to new website owners that they should cost every aspect of shipping a product, including sending someone to the post office. Its very easy to loose your profit in shipping costs if you are not carefull - if its costing you more to send it than you are making then whats the point of having a website!

[fleetwood]

Re: the postage charge - I was more peeved at the wife not realising the postage was more than the goods, than the company making the charge, but you are all missing my point (or rather I must have phrased it badly)...

As I have to send the thing back, haven't I the implied right to also charge £6.95 for MY costs in returning it (even though it would only cost me £2 in postage, as it did them). My time going to the PO is also worth money!

ie I expect a refund of goods and postage charged to me PLUS my postage costs sending it back, calculated in the same manner as they do.


Ahhh women and babies - the two should never be allowed a credit card.

oh so true....and why a joint account is called such, I'll never know.
Surely there must be a more appropriate name for a "I'll keep topping it up, you keep emptying it" account :D

[george]

Take the £4.00 overcharge in postage out of Mrs ComicMan's next birthday present, that'll teach her to be more careful in future.


Threaten to name and shame the company to your mailing list of over 50,000 comicreadingtypes.


Take it back to the post office saying you didn't order it, but insert it in a very heavy box first.


George = Mr Nice Guy

[chris ashdown]

Martin
As the item did not meet its description you are right to return it as faulty and get a full refund of good and postage from them to you and the actual return postage

Unless you have agreed with the supplier to charge for your time etc then I doubt you could claim for this as its not been agreed

There is a stronger case to ask them to pick it up as its not fit for purpose, but again thats a minefield

We operate a single fixed P&P charge which reflects our charges and is the same if you order 1 item or 25 items but in some cases people buy a small accessory that is valued under the P&P charge value, what else can you do except charge the full rate

[fleetwood]

Take it back to the post office saying you didn't order it, but insert it in a very heavy box first.

I take your point, but I kind of think that's a little bit of a harsh way to treat a heavily pregnant woman :D

[TraceyHand]

Take the £4.00 overcharge in postage out of Mrs ComicMan's next birthday present, that'll teach her to be more careful in future.
Threaten to name and shame the company to your mailing list of over 50,000 comicreadingtypes.
Take it back to the post office saying you didn't order it, but insert it in a very heavy box first.
George = Mr Nice Guy

in a good mood this morning, George? :p

I'm with the general opinion here. Not really in a position to complain about the initial P+P as, overcharged as it may be (and £6.95 is hefty for mail order IMO) it was on the website.

Not sure how you could make them pay any more than "cost" for the return. I doubt any retailer would reimburse any more than cost price for return of faulty goods.

[george]

in a good mood this morning, George? :p



As always tiger... ;)

[jont]

Martin - make sure you are not using the Comic email as if you annoy them sufficiently they may pull a similar stroke to get "revenge"

[fleetwood]

Its the wife's email Jont - she's the one who made the purchase (I have better things to do with my money :D )

In line with the consensus of opinion - even though I don't fully agree - I'll only ask for my basic costs.

I don't agree that £6.95 is a reasonable charge to make for sending what is effectively an over-sized hankie, by Royal Mail, whichever way you dress it up, which is why I wanted to make my point by claiming same on return, but wdf, I have better things to do, and I'd be stupid to fly in the face of such strong opinion!

[pnagames]

Martin

i would support you on what you said about claiming more than your postage but legally you do not stand a chance.

so you can ask for all the money that you paid them and the cost of sending the item back.

i find it ridiculous that they charge so much for p&p.:eek: and to even say that they charge for someone to walk the parcels to the post office. (i do that everyday but i dont charge my customers for that priviledge)

[brian.mc]

to even say that they charge for someone to walk the parcels to the post office. (i do that everyday but i dont charge my customers for that priviledge)Why not?
Say you employed someone, on minimum wage (£5.35 per hour, but with National Insurance etc effectively £6 + per hour), and you sent them to the post office with the package. Let's say they were very lucky, and didn't have to queue for ages when they got there, chances are that it would take at least 15 minutes - cost to you £1.50. Don't you think that should be costed into your pricing?

IMO postage & packing should cover packaging materials, time taken to wrap, actual postage costs and time spent taking the parcel to the post office.

You should also factor in an allowance to cover the postage costs on goods returned, as this will also affect your bottom line.

[fleetwood]

Brian

Overheads and post and packing costs are two seperate issues.

To process an order and send a parcel involves a number of variable costs - including credit card processing fee, invoice printing, packaging materials and postage.
It is reasonable, and sensible business practice to factor these into a processing/ post and packaging cost, as they are primarily PER PARCEL/ORDER costs.

Business overheads - HLP, rent and rates, LABOUR etc - are fixed costs, which are incurred whether you take 1,000 orders per day, or none at all.
Such costs should be factored into a profit model, and used to establish the price of goods, not the cost of mailing them out - a totally seperate issue. Labour charges obviously will increase with order volume, but not to the extent that they can be calculated on a parcel by parcel basis.

Post and packing / processing fee - whatever you want to call it - should be an appropriate charge for covering the cost of shipping the goods.

If any small business employs someone specifically to walk to the post office and back, I'd love them to speak up.
The labour cost is there regardless of whether a trip is needed or not.

Trying to justify building that cost into a post and packing fee is as unreasonable as claiming rent and rates is part of that charge too (after all - if there wasn't a building to trade from, we couldn't send your parcel, so 1% of the packaging cost is for rent and rates).

Any businesses must account for its costs.
They also need to understand the difference between overheads and variable costs.

At the end of the day, my complaint was not that I was being charged more than the cost of postage - my own business factors in variable cost into the packing charge - but that the charge was totally disproportionate - £6.95 comprising £1.95 postage, £5 miscellaneous other charges is very poor.
Let the buyer beware - OK.
Piss the buyer off with a stupid explanation - not wise.

For the record, the trader has a 93% amazon satisfaction rating.
The 7% downers, are nearly all complaints about postage.
If it was my business, I'd be taking some notice!

[RuralWeb]

IMO postage & packing should cover packaging materials, time taken to wrap, actual postage costs and time spent taking the parcel to the post office. This is the view I take as well - you may want to call it a handling charge which can be accounted for separately within Actinic but it all adds up to the same

[jont]

Trying to justify building that cost into a post and packing fee is as unreasonable

I was going to say this is common practice with Ebayers and then saw they are on Amazon. Attract with low prices and whack it back on at the end.

It is a fact people would rather pay £10.00 with free delivery than £8.00 with £2.00 (or any combination thereof).

If the purchaser wants a refund they have to reimburse the full amount - which will grate. People rarely return to such sellers who charge "admin" on delivery so as to bump their profit margins.

[brian.mc]

Martin,

I agree with you up to a point, and would agree that if your business is mainly internet/mail order, with all or most orders being posted, then some of the costs mentioned in my post could be factored into the retail price, rather than postage, but I am looking at it from a B&M Store point of view, where the retail price of the goods is calculated on the costs and overheads involved, for customers purchasing goods and taking them away.

When the customer wishes the purchases delivered, by whatever method, then any additional costs involved in delivering the goods should be calculated separately and charged as delivery/postage/packaging/handling. In that case, the labour costs involved in delivering the goods to the post office are a relevant factor.

Considering that there is a likelihood that there will soon be far fewer post offices, it's possible that the journey to the post office will be further and take longer, so it will be even more important to factor the extra costs in.

[Tickle]

I recently had a similar experience from the vendor side.

We decided to set a fixed price P&P of £3.95 and free delivery over £35 rather than a weight based approach for simplicity and to make it easy for customers to see postage upfront. Virtually all our competitors charge £1 - £2 more.

The problem we faced is that we sell lots of different products which vary in weight considerably. We calculated a P&P rate that represented a slightly subsidised cost on an average order in terms of Royal Mail postal weight cost plus the cost of packaging.

So a recent customer complained after they received their order for a £2.00 item that had a 48p Smartstamp (it was very lightweight).

When I spoke to them they weren't complaining that the postage was too high, it was the fact that the stamp had 48p displayed. They accepted that if the stamp had no value then there would have been no complaint.

Initially it seems that the only fair model seems to be weight based but that makes it hard for customers to see what they're paying until checkout and would penalise many of our customers.

Another P&P cost I bet no-one factors in is the cost of lost deliveries with RM.

Can't wait until we qualify for PPI.

[fleetwood]

PPI is a godsend.

They collect (at a cost of £1 a day - get factoring :)), so no trips to the PO, the prices are cheaper, and the label dosen't display the cost!

Let me share a little trade tip - if you are anywhere near the PPI join limit of 5,000 parcels, then blag it, and tell them you will do the 5,000 pa.

So long as your not miles out, then chances are that when they review your account after a year, they will just let you continue.

They seem to be happy so long as you spend £5,000 pa, so don't worry too much if you can't get to 5,000 parcels.

RM are quite desperate for the business, so its always worth a go (just don't tell them I said so :D )

[Stereo Steve]

I'll second that. When we started we were doing about 1000 a year so I just told a fib. There was a massive benefit in terms of efficiency which enabled us to push forward very quickly and we are now doing many, many thousands a year.

Sometimes you have to put your business first. Dog eat dog.

[Darren B]

Martin

What happened to this story in the end

Darren

[fleetwood]

I returned the goods a week or so ago, claiming refund but no return costs, but have not yet received a reply or refund of any kind.
I'll chase them up after the weekend.

[Darren B]

worse case is issue a charge back i suppose. Are they going to fight for the sake of a few quid. its a bit of a mine field though. As business man you can see both sides

Darren