Knowledgebase Additions

[leehack]

I've put no effort into helping in this area so far as currently i don't see it making a single scrap of difference. However, i do appreciate that this is not the greatest attitude and i'm interested to see if anyone can explain a few points. I will gladly jump on board and assist if my mind can be changed.

1 - For people who do not search, what good will it do to have a KB full of articles? Is the intention to fill up the KB and then when people post duplicate questions, we direct to the KB instead of the search facility? How is that going to be more acceptable and more importantly, how does that reduce the junk in the forum, i don't get it?

2 - The forum naturally keep itself up to date with issues and best solutions, it does this naturally as it is an evolving reference point. When you choose to take something out of that flow and into the KB, are you not introducing a reference point which will ultimately be out of date and require constant housekeeping? Have you ever played Trivial Pursuit with 2 year old questions? - you'll catch my drift. The post re flash integration being a prime example today.

3 - We are attempting to sort out the forum and make a better reference point for new users, yet the first place they are referred to (the forum) is not going to have anything different? Whats changing? is increasing the KB, not completely missing the point?

All power to the trawl, i for one can understand what that is like, but i hate to see that kind of effort going into something that i cannot see making any difference at all. What's the aim? why is it being done, is it just a case of saying we did something - i think that effort is far better aligned into current resources. Surely those threads would be far better placed in the problem solvers thread, than into the exterior KB?

[pinbrook]

Ok this is how I think.....

1 - For people who do not search, what good will it do to have a KB full of articles? Is the intention to fill up the KB and then when people post duplicate questions, we direct to the KB instead of the search facility? How is that going to be more acceptable and more importantly, how does that reduce the junk in the forum, i don't get it? we can't stop people from posting before searching BUT the KB will have one question one answer so hopefully easier to point people to. Searching the forum often brings up too many results where it is difficult to find the reply you need

2 - The forum naturally keep itself up to date with issues and best solutions, it does this naturally as it is an evolving reference point. When you choose to take something out of that flow and into the KB, are you not introducing a reference point which will ultimately be out of date and require constant housekeeping? Have you ever played Trivial Pursuit with 2 year old questions? - you'll catch my drift. The post re flash integration being a prime example today. same reply as above, and because it will require more housekeeping it should be cleaner

3 - We are attempting to sort out the forum and make a better reference point for new users, yet the first place they are referred to (the forum) is not going to have anything different? Whats changing? is increasing the KB, not completely missing the point? we have to accept the forum will always be trashy and bloated aswell as being the most upto date - anyone can post to the forum, if you have the skills to find stuff the forum is still going to be better, but the KB will only be maintained by Actinic.

At the mo we can refer someone to a thread in the forum that might have 20 replies, the person being sent to that thread then has to interpret al lthe posts, if there is a KB item you can refer people to it will be in the form Q and A - simpler to understand.

In my view alot of the problem solvers should be added to KB, and thus rewritten into Q/A rather than the current format where some of them are long threads that require interpretation.

I feel we are both aiming to acheive the same thing Lee, we've each got a slightly different angle on how to do it.

At the end of the day we both want everyone to be able to find the info more easily. In an ideal world, 100% of people will search before they post, but this will never happen but it shouldn't stop us from trying to build a better resource and hope that we can increase the number of people who will search and ultimately find.

I've noticed an increasing number of posts where people now say they've searched without sucess, thats our current issue - searching is easy but finding is something else .

[leehack]

Hmm Ok didn't think i'd missed anything. Hows about the articles you have listed are started as new threads, with correct titles for the search to find them along with JUST the correct info inside and then they have a direct link in the problem solvers thread.

They then have no junk included in them, they have a direct link straight to the answer in the problem solvers thread and they are available in the forum where most people arrive. They can be easily updated and all threads of this sort should be given a 5 -star rating automatically. We then have a forum of 40-50 threads, all 5 star rated and all refernced in the problem solvers thread.

I like your ideas, i just think it is flawed as its hiding the info away into the KB which nobody uses, whereas it should come into the forum which everyone uses.

Remember, the problem solvers thread has had no advertising, it is just a sticky and has succeeded on it's own. If that was complete and up to date with the common problems - i think it would be very acceptable to provide a link to it for duplicate posts, if these duplicate posts were then picked up on a search, at least they all point to one central place - i.e. the problem solvers thread.

Sound good or not? I think that merges the best of both solutions, but still gives us control as we can't rely on actinic in this area.

[pinbrook]

I just think its worth building on the KB and get it to be somewhere that is viable as a resource in its own right - it has a better search facility than the forum and is less cluttered and is only editable by Actinic. Actinic acknowledges they've neglected it of late so it could be made better.

I think the forum is great and is still my first stop but everyday its getting more and more unwieldly and thus is becoming to difficult to find things in. We are all agreed we can't stop people continually asking the same Qs, which then come up in results when people search thus compounding the issue.

Even if my proposed KB items were transposed to individual forum posts they can still be added to by anyone, thus diluting their effectiveness, I see them as 2 parts only Q and A, not Q and A followed by loads of other stuff.

by being in the KB they are not editable and thus more sucinct. Others have already added to the current conversation on forum relevance by saying you find a thread with the correct info within it but then have to navigate through 40 posts in order to find an answer, the KB bypasses this.

To be honest i'll go along with the consensus, if the majority want to stay with the forum and think I'm going up a blind alley then I'll join the majority.

[leehack]

Post them in the main forum and get the mods to lock them, so they can only be read, they then show up in searches too. They need to give mods rights to a few members OR get their fingers out of their backsides and help a little. We could happily (with correct rights) sort it out in 24 hours flat. If we wait for their red-tape it could be much longer.

I think the KB is dying a slow death and should be left in peace to die. It is hard enough trying to get people to think for themselves without bringing in a whole new URL they need to visit. Lets help them use something they already do, than show them how to use something they don't IMO.

But like you, i am happy to go with the general consensus.

[TraceyHand]

Ok, if I may join this discussion?

I like the KB. I have used it a lot in the past (even for V8) but I don't think it's used nearly as much as the forums/searches.
I'm sure that a lot of new posters don't even know it's there.

So..if the "customers" are coming to the forums, then I guess that's probably the best place to focus the information (when properly filtered etc)

Much as I do prefer to use the KB, I find that its search isn't very good either. Often even topics that I know are covered in there, I can't find on my first attempt (much like the forums, but for different reasons)

I think moving the KB *into* the forums might be the way to go...but, of course, that's just my opinion.

[pinbrook]

The more the merrier, this isn't the lee/jo show.

Although if the KB were better- wouldn't you use it? this is my quest.

[TraceyHand]

yes, Jo....*I* would..but I suspect the tendancies of new members is still to head straight for the forum (and, most of the time, without searching first)

The KB isn't "in your face" enough, for one thing. But yes, if the info was there, it would be a better place to refer people to than the current forum threads.

Often a forum thread solution to a problem is spread over several entries (and sometimes several threads..just look at the whole Paypal fiasco right now)...which isn't a "one stop" solution even when referred to as a "solution"

Somewhere...all this info needs bringing together and I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that it's Actinic's responsibility to be doing this...not forum members/users.

If ALL forum solutions are put into the KB swiftly and in their entirity (and this will make many KB entries more detailed than they currently are) then it could, over time, be the place people are first referred to rather than previous theads/forum searches.

Am I on the fence then? LOL...probably!

[wjcampbe]

Lee,

Although I would have used different phraseology to analyse the problem, I believe you hit the pointed wire on the flat bit - but just slightly off target.

I believe an ability to mark the exact post in each thread that contains the answer, triggering a flag that bubbles that thread to the top of the search, leaving threads with no useful answer languishing on page 17 of the search results, combined with subclassification of threads to functional areas would provide a better resource.

I still don't favour a 'Newbies' board, because that defeats the idea of subclassing the main board and will lead to duplicate posts - one for the 'newbies' and a second correctly classified response for the old scotsman wilting in the egyptian heat who cannot recall how to get the innerlayout to centralise between the left and right navigation.

[Duncan Rounding]

I think that the KB can work well - just as the AUG has. Trying to isolate questions, discussions leading to useful information, and other snippets from the forum would be a nightmare - Lee's (very useful) sticky's proof of that and is ideal info for the KB.

I do think that it's difficult to decide whats for the AUG and what's for the KB - perhaps they will blend at some stage.

The KB should be far easier to use than the forum - they're only fragments after all I presume.

(Maybe Bill can even modify his Act2pdf to create a pdf of it for download)

[leehack]

Ok, if I may join this discussion?
Paranoia will destroy ya! I've never stopped anyone or commented on anyone doing anything in the threads i start and i never will. Freedom is just that - to be free, especially of rules.

It's very important for us to think as newbies, not experienced members and because of this i think Tracey got it spot on. It's not a case of whether KB is better than the forum, it is about what is going to be used the most, which i do not think can be argued.

A KB is great for us, but not newbies IMO and we do not need to use the KB as we know how or who who wrote the post in the forum with our answer.

Jo's ideas and Bill's comments are absolutely correct in that a thread with 60 posts does not highlight where the answer is, BUT, do not let that make you think that it needs to come out of the forum and into the KB, all that is needed is for the info to be extracted (like Jo has been doing) and into a locked thread (similar to the KB method). So we end up with the KB solution in the most popular place - i think that's win win on all accounts.

[pinbrook]

Lee,

I believe you hit the pointed wire on the flat bit - but just slightly off target.

I'd love to know what this means?

[TraceyHand]

Paranoia will destroy ya! I've never stopped anyone or commented on anyone doing anything in the threads i start and i never will. Freedom is just that - to be free, especially of rules.

I wasn't asking for permission, per se....I was more just being polite..it's the new me :p

all that is needed is for the info to be extracted (like Jo has been doing) and into a locked thread (similar to the KB method). So we end up with the KB solution in the most popular place - i think that's win win on all accounts.

I agree...as long as Actinic views this as their job...not ours/yours/whoevers

[pinbrook]

Often a forum thread solution to a problem is spread over several entries (and sometimes several threads..just look at the whole Paypal fiasco right now)...which isn't a "one stop" solution even when referred to as a "solution"

Somewhere...all this info needs bringing together and I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that it's Actinic's responsibility to be doing this...not forum members/users.

If ALL forum solutions are put into the KB swiftly and in their entirity (and this will make many KB entries more detailed than they currently are) then it could, over time, be the place people are first referred to rather than previous theads/forum searches.

Yep this is what needs to happen, once the paypal issue has been resolved it needs to be reduced to one post - and posted either as an non - editable forum post or KB

but theres the problem - how do do make sure the recent definative answer is then fed as a search result and floats to the top? this is where the KB shoudl be better.

Here's a radical idea - a sub forum that only certain members can post to - ie a kb sub forum within the forum, and no replies allowed

[Stereo Steve]

For the record, I usually check the KB first and then search second. Although, I have to admit of late, I have ignored the KB due to lack of success in finding answers.

Personally, I think the KB is valuable and should be maintained. As an example, I recently discovered a bug where the last state of the last country is lost in v8 when you upload. Support confirmed it and I was able to solve it. However, I recently wanted to point somebody to it but was unable to find the thread (I didn't start it) where it was discussed and where I posted the bug report (I thought it would be usefull for anyone else searching the problem).

If I can't find a thread I posted on, what hope has a newbie? A KB article would surely be much easier to find.

[RuralWeb]

as long as Actinic views this as their job...not ours/yours/whoeversthe question is whos forum is it - is it a marketing/support tool for actinic or a community owned by its users. If it belongs to actinic then its thier job but if as chris posted in another thread it was setup by actinic for the benifit of its customers/users then there should be user mods who would take control,

[Duncan Rounding]

...I believe you hit the pointed wire on the flat bit - but just slightly off target.

I'd love to know what this means?


Bill's Scottish/Egyptian slang for 'hit the nail on the head - but not quite all th eway into the wood'.

Or at least that's my translation. :D

[chris ashdown]

Maybe you are missing the point, by being so tied up helping with the forum!!

The point as I see it is that

1) many questions keep getting asked time and time again

2) People are getting fed up answering the same old questions

3) due to above site gets filed up with above and people get pissed off

Is not the solution for a strong update of the help pages on the software, moving the whole KB and a large part of the Advanced onto the help pages (where better to look) and mayb offer a help update at regular intervalls

Today I tried to get a third computer on my MU, in the end I rang up support who sent me a installation guide to MU

Question why was it not included in the help files which gave very little information

A lot of people probably never get to the forum as its not the bast advertised site on the actinic pages so their first stop would be the help pages

[pinbrook]

Is not the solution for a strong update of the help pages on the software, moving the whole KB and a large part of the Advanced onto the help pages (where better to look) and mayb offer a help update at regular intervalls

In my view - YES

I still prefer to search for a solution - and find it - rather than ask and wait.

We are all getting jaded, but i think we are beginning to pull together, alot more crap has been ignored over the past few days, there was even a thread bumped by its owner after 11 minutes today - again that was ignored - OP already had been given the correct answer which wasn't what he wanted to hear.

I am still the eternal optimist and utopian who wants to see the quality of the help improved, whether it be forum, KB, help docs or whatever. If i search I want to find.

I am also happy to devote a few hours to help this happen.

[leehack]

there was even a thread bumped by its owner after 11 minutes today - again that was ignored - OP already had been given the correct answer which wasn't what he wanted to hear.
I chuckled when i saw that as i knew he had just shot himself in the foot.

[Jan]

I think the knowledgebase is the right place for proven solutions to be added, it can be managed far more easily than the forum. If the search isn't good enough then maybe it should be replaced with a wiki or some similar tool.

Regards,

[RuralWeb]

I think the knowledgebase is the right place for proven solutions to be addedAgreed - maybe chris needs to make the link to it in the top right of the forum a bit bigger and flashing!

[Jan]

Agreed, or maybe the forum search could be modifed to include the text, don't forget to search the knowledge base for solutions with a link.

Regards,

[RuralWeb]

maybe the forum search could be modifed to include the text, don't forget to search the knowledge base for solutions with a link.If the two could be linked to provide answers to the same search then that would help

[RuralWeb]

OR - if one of us knows its in the KB then could we not have an icon that can be placed on the post to indicate that its in the KB without getting flamed as jo puts it

[Duncan Rounding]

Good idea for the icon. We could upload one to photobucket or suchlike and then include the image in the post each time. (I'm sure gabs could knock up a suitable icon and load it up to photobucket)

We could also add some text to our signatures about searching the KB, AUG and Forum Stickies etc.

How about this one (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y254/drounding/KB_Topic.gif)?

EDIT: Are IMG tags disabled on this forum?

[cdicken]

Hi chaps - with regards to the community/knowledge base/advanced user guide discussion, the realisation here at Actinic Towers is that the community has become a support forum, but that shouldn't be it's primary role. It's primary role should be the sharing of ideas, rather than fixing other people's problems. People's first port of call should be the help/kb/aug, then they should search the community, then they should ask a question. It's going to take a while to shift that emphasis and change that behaviour, but that's the plan.

[RuralWeb]

the realisation here at Actinic Towers is that the community has become a support forum, but that shouldn't be it's primary role. It's primary role should be the sharing of ideas, rather than fixing other people's problems.Exactly - it might be worth moving the forum down the list of support options on your website - at the moment its N01 which means people come here before Actinic support

[JSnow]

Being relatively new, I am maybe not entitled to an opinion on this but here it is anyway...

Why not create a new forum "topic"(?) called "New Users Questions" and restrict access to the other topics so that the new users can only search through them and not post in them. Anyone with less than X posts should be considered a new user.

This would give the new users access to the information via the search (which is what everyone wants them to do). Should they still not find an answer they can post in the "New Users Questions" forum and the more experienceed users can choose whether to look at them or not. At the top of this forum, place a single sticky in capitals that asks, "HAVE YOU SEARCHED?".

A mod can then trawl the "New Users Questions" forum (say once every 24hrs) to check the questions. If the mod finds a "double post" then ignore it and let the other new users answer the questions (i.e. build up X amount of posts).

If the mod finds a question that is solvable or requires expert attention, then he/she can post a link to it in the relative "restricted" forum.

This would free up the other forums for serious improvement / solution discussions. Not to mention save all the more experienced users time to work on more intricate / satisfying improvements and solutions without all the annoying "double posts" clogging up their threads.

I personally search, use the aug & help files before posting so I know it can be done (to great success). Almost every question has been answered.

Chris, why not give these guys what they want. Without their assistance (solutions previously posted and searched for) it would have taken me far longer to finalise my site.

These few are by far Actinic's greatest asset. They are willing to help and provide solutions for everyone to use (free of charge!!!!) just as long as they can do it without being interrupted by "double posts".

I for one, think that their request is justified and to be honest, I wouldn't mind only having search privileges if those privileges will result in giving me the (exact) answers that I require.

[pinbrook]

People's first port of call should be the help/kb/aug and actinic support line

Therefore at the risk of being controversial why not cease to advertise the community on the actinic website, let people find the community ...

they will find it by a large by 2 methods

support introduce them to it
they search the www to find it - hey they will know how to search then before posting and demanding.

[chris ashdown]

If it gets two small a number of people asking questions then gradually people will drift away and the forum will just be a place to visit either once a week or when you need something,

[RuralWeb]

Therefore at the risk of being controversial why not cease to advertise the community on the actinic website, let people find the community Agreed - if its not part of the actinic support structure it should not be on the support page

[Mike Hughes]

I agree that it shouldn't be on the actinic support page. I actually think it should have a more prominant position their main page. The actinic community and it's members are a key benefit for actinic and shouldn't be hidden away.

Mike

[RuralWeb]

I actually think it should have a more prominant position their main page. Agreed - with thier fantastic new website they should be able to put it in there no problem - job for Bruce:D

[pinbrook]

membership of the community only to be given by Actinic to people 30 days after they have bought the software, thus trial users and newbies get forced to search for answers to questions always asked by newbie and already here - thus reducing its alter ego as a support desk

[jont]

membership of the community only to be given by Actinic to people 30 days after they have bought the software, thus trial users and newbies get forced to search for answers to questions always asked by newbie and already here - thus reducing its alter ego as a support desk

Actinic will never agree to that - the forum is a great way to encourage people to actually buy the software if they get stuck during the trial period and determine if the product is suitable.. maybe trial users could only be allowed to post in a separate area only gaining full access via their licensed copy key.. thereby showing the benefits of buying (getting full access.. added upsell feature for Bruce T) and to show people they are trial users so if members do not want to provide free support they can chose to ignore.

[pinbrook]

Actinic will never agree to that - the forum is a great way to encourage people to actually buy the software if they get stuck during the trial period and determine if the product is suitable shame.... does actinic offer support to trial users?

I'm simply thinking aloud from ChrisD's comment that this community shouldn't be considered a support forum, but should be a community for sharing ideas.

[jont]

shame.... does actinic offer support to trial users?

I would imagine not as they are over run with people who pay for support let alone those on the trial.

There is a lot more to this forum than simply support ... example sites, general e-commerce, SEO etc and from Actinic's viewpoint it should also offer support .. both from the Mods and from other users .. bless their socks but programmers do not actually use the product in the way an end user will (the number of times we see "We can not replicate the issue") so hand-on advice is preferable in some instances (look at the size of the wish list). The AUG has largely been written by forum members not by Actinic.

It is also a great marketing tool to encourage users to buy their product. A thriving support community must go some way towards encouraging people to buy their product... not everyone can afford the additional cost of support and as the product is geared essentially towards people who probably do not have any design/html/code skills. A forum also allows people to make a post, read and implement the reply in their own time. We often see follow up posts a few days later as it did not work and they are busy running a site to drop everything and try out some new code... repeatedly phoning Actinic support as it did not work would probably overload their whole support system.

[RuralWeb]

the product is geared essentially towards people who probably do not have any design/html/code skillsTrue - until you open the design window which IMO should be turned off in the default software so it forces the user to get to grips with the basic software before they get more advanced.

I seen many instances of people diving stright into the design window thinking its how they do basic changes like adding text, changing colours etc and really trashing the site. If they were forced to do it through the themes then they would achieve much more. V7 in effect did this because most users did not even know the template manager existed until they were very used to the software.

Even a warning when first switching to the design window would help

[RuralWeb]

Or not being given a password to open the design window unless you do the Actinic design course Marketing are you listening:D

[Duncan Rounding]

I think the new 'Suggested new Articles for KB' (http://community.actinic.com/showthread.php?t=31138) is becoming the most useful thread I've read on the forum. I look forward to seeing the information incorporated into the KB in an organised and logical manner.

Well done all contributors so far - especially 'Croccy' and 'Gabs' whose efforts are to be commended.

I for one have learnt a lot from the thread and will definitely be making use of some of the information posted. :) :)

[leehack]

I agree, it's a great resource, it's just a crime that it is going to be hidden away in the KB. It should be in this forum with maximum prominence. IN FACT, if it continues like that it should have a dedicated READ-ONLY forum of it's own.

Hiding it away in the KB is utter madness.

Time for the MODS to loosen their control, i want the connection problems forum, i can get that great.

[Duncan Rounding]

Personally I think the AUG and the KB shoud be one and the same.

[pinbrook]

I've already commented somewhere else that i'd like to see the AUG as an online tool

maybe nows the time to have an extra forum here for AUG and KB combined - called TIPS and TRICKS - but it must be Q/A format - not links to other thread - the Q/A must be with in the thread - then no extra comments etc - comments/discussion can go back into other forums. At least then if you search the tips forum you get no trash

maybe we could open this to allow certain people add access, and leave it read only for the majority (to add articles you must be approved by actinic, or nominated)

I must admit this makes it easier for us to add useful stuff - the KB thread takes me a few minutes each day , i see something useful and add it -job done

[Duncan Rounding]

I agree a closed read only forum for AUG and KB 'tips and tricks' sounds like a very good idea. I still think though that's it's very useful to have an organised downloadable and printable format as well.

[leehack]

I must admit this makes it easier for us to add useful stuff - the KB thread takes me a few minutes each day , i see something useful and add it -job done
My exact reasoning, we control it so it can be done instantly and it is available instantly in their most widely used resource.

Jo, typical example yesterday about the sitemap errors, imagine getting that into the KB and then we have to get it removed - WE NEED FULL CONTROL, not them. Forum gives us control, we can adjust anything immediately, not have to wait and contact somebody - that's crap.

[gabrielcrowe]

maybe we could open this to allow certain people add access, and leave it read only for the majority (to add articles you must be approved by actinic, or nominated)

like this:

http://www.asylumunlimited.co.uk/wiki

[pinbrook]

Jo, typical example yesterday about the sitemap errors, imagine getting that into the KB and then we have to get it removed - WE NEED FULL CONTROL, not them. yep that what i mean, approved contributors (ie us) add stuff then we can correct, but only approved peeps so it doesn't get diluted with comments/questions

it all goes into one forum so the forum is searchable in its own right

Gabs - the wiki is a good idea, but in the past when we've tried to do something as a community everyone is enthusastic until they are asked to actually do something. it would fall into the category of another resourse to search, as as we know no-one bothers to search anything except this forum - now i've contradicted myself cos I'm on a mission to get the KB a workable solution too

[gabrielcrowe]

roflcopters, indeed you did ms pinbrook

[gabrielcrowe]

then how about a site that is mysql+php frontend to search the knowledgebase?

i'd be able to whip that up nice and quick.

then all that'd be problematic would be filling up the database.

[leehack]

- now i've contradicted myself cos I'm on a mission to get the KB a workable solution too
Woohoo I'm starting to win croccy over too!

[pinbrook]

No chance.... :eek:

I still think for it to suceed it has to stay within actinic.

so i still support the KB, although I prefer the idea of tips and tricks sub forum to cover both kb and aug

[jont]

croccy

Why "croccy"?

[leehack]

Cos she whinged at Pinny lol

Croccy is to do with her shoes i think OR maybe her bite if you post in the wrong forum.

[jont]

her bite if you post in the wrong forum.


Haaaa ... nuff said :D

[Goz]

I have a hosting reseller account with Heart. The only method of getting support is by using an online form (pain in the ars*). When ever I raise a support ticket and submit it, the contents of the ticket are checked against the on-line help (equivalent of Actinic's KB) and a list of possible articles are presented to me. I can check these articles and quite often, I'll get a solution. If I can't find the solution, I can then confirm that I want to carry on with the support ticket.

I know this is a bit different, but the principle could be the same... before a new post is submitted to the BB, it is checked against the KB for some kind of match. Maybe not for all new posts but not sure what the rules would be.

Not sure how easy this would be to implement.

[pinbrook]

Cos she whinged at Pinny lol

Croccy is to do with her shoes i think OR maybe her bite if you post in the wrong forum.

croccy is the shoes, and maybe the attitude somedays,

pinny makes me think you want to send me back to the kitchen