Clients who think they know

[Chunkford]

I create sites for shop owners who want to get on the web, and they ask me for my advice (as i keep an ear to the ground in most areas) as well, but.... What do you do when someone you create a site for thinks he knows best when customers are browsing his site, when he doesn't really?

We fall out over the silliest of things, but the latest one has really put a bee in my bonnet.

What he thinks is that i should create several pages with well over 1000 products on :eek: so customers can just scroll down and down and down...
I reckon this is silly, as most people will get bored by about 50 products, and the page load times are going to be massive.
When i told him its not a good idea for several reasons and that if it was a good idea then amazon would be doing it, he just laughs and says what do amazon know about my trade (even though they are in the same bleeding industry - retail!)

Oh what to do, what to say, i just wonder if its worth it and just keep my mouth shut and go yes sir, three bags full sir.

Paul

P.S. sorry for the moan but its nice to vent it with like minded people. Makes you feel better :)

[Duncan Rounding]

You have two choices. Go with what he says but put in writing that you do not agree with his perceived benefits. Alternatively don't agree to do the work.

Personally I wouild not agree to doing it that way as it would reflect back on you later.

[Chunkford]

TBH, i am trying not to p#*ss him off, as he is my only source of income at the mo, and with the current climate, getting work is a nightmare - "cash flow is thin at the mo" which is the response i am getting.

But mind you, i haven't really tried to get work other than around my local area.

Maybe 2009 should be the year i go nation wide :D

[george]

Do it his way, and do an alternative site ie broken down into sections so he can see the difference.

Also expain that he'll have many pages to be `discovered on` instead of just one (massive one).

Its not really that much work to c&p stuff is it (or rip up a saved snapshot)?

[jont]

If you have outlined the issues, set backs and every reason why not to do it and they still want it you have to bite your pride and do it for them.

You can push clients so far in the right direction but if they want something a particular way and you can do it then you have to do it.

As Duncan says you need to put in writing why you think it will not work and place the responsibility for lack of sales back with him. Surely anyone in their right mind at the moment will take advice on how to improve sales for no additional cost???

[pinbrook]

One of the skills of a webdesigner is being able to educate their clients. But i appreciate not all clients want to be educated so if i were in your position i would set everything down on paper, and provide arguements for and against all the points you have discussed then send this to the client.

If he still refuses to accept your advice you have to decide if you want to do the job his way. If you do accept the job according to his criteria - again provide a full quote along with what you are going to do. Provide your original misgivings as an appendix.

At least that way you protect your integrity and still get the job.

[Kirk]

Can you find a site that is set up like he wants, with several hundred items on a page? Not necessarily a retail site, but one with a huge page load. Show them that, then show him what a well designed site looks like.

What was the name of that UK(?) car site with all the stuff on it? They even posted here a few times.

Some folks learn by listening, some by watching and some of us have to grab the electric fence. :eek:

[bamboo]

my only source of income at the mo

Then why bother moaning?

You are obviously employed to deliver what the client wants even if what he wants is wrong in your and just about everyone else's opinion. As you do not have the luxury of a portfolio of clients you have to deliver what this one really wants. Take his money and move on as quickly as you can.
Otherwise you are in lose-lose situation (go read Steven Coveys 7 Habits of Highly Successful People to understand this.)

There is no profit in wasting your time trying to educate someone who doesn't 'get it' because he will never 'get it' and it will end up being your fault that he didn't 'get it.

Take the cash on offer and run.

[Darren B]

Can you find a site that is set up like he wants, with several hundred items on a page?

Not several hundred http://www.casupply.co.uk/acatalog/10mm_polycarbonate.html but this would not work for a done as SPP's but it really depends on the layout of the products inmind.

[pinbrook]

You are obviously employed to deliver what the client wants .no you aren't. As a professional web developer you should be employed to offer best advice, otherwise cowboy springs to minds you do not have the luxury of a portfolio of clients you have to deliver what this one really wants. Take his money and move on as quickly as you can.
do this and you will never get a portfolio of clients, think about how potential clients come to you and ask to see what you've done in the past

There is no profit in wasting your time trying to educate someone who doesn't 'get it' because he will never 'get it' and it will end up being your fault that he didn't 'get it.

Take the cash on offer and run. at your own risk.

[RuralWeb]

Sometimes you just have to let clients learn by thier mistakes - explain what you see as being wrong and if they still want it then go ahead and build it. Make sure you have a good stats package working so you can see the before and after results - if it works then so be it but if it fails then you can prove it and you will be better armed when they have thier next great idea.

Sometimes though some clients are more trouble than they are worth and you need to move on. Odds on though they will come back when other designers tell them the same as you have. As jo says try not to be one of the many rip off merchants that we see time and time again - it will pay off in the end;)

[bamboo]

no you aren't. As a professional web developer you should be employed to offer best advice, otherwise cowboy springs to mind
do this and you will never get a portfolio of clients, think about how potential clients come to you and ask to see what you've done in the past


A web developers job description covers many things and what is in the developers mind may be good advice and best practice but what is often in the clients mind is simply 'build me a website'. An astonishing number of people who think they need a web presence haven't a clue what they really want.
Trouble is that the client is the person paying for the developers service so it is up to the developer to choose the right clients IMHO or else you can end up in this chaps situation.

This chap only has one client and an awkward one at that. He has given the client his best advice. The client chooses to ignore him. That is his prerogative as he is paying for the developers services.

He now has a choice to make.
He can either walk away (This job is his only source of income at the moment so could be difficult) or he can just build exactly what his client wants thus fulfilling his employment obligations, take his fee and at the same time make sure he finds other clients.
There would be no point in doing other work for this client as he will probably always think he knows best and will likely never listen.

He says he creates sites for shop owners so he should already have a portfolio of sites to show prospective clients that he knows his stuff and is not a rip off merchant. However persisting with this client, even if it his only paying job, may prove to be folly.

[leehack]

If work is thin on the ground and you have a mortgage and family to support, it would be very hard to just say bye bye to a client like this, but personally i think that is the best course of action if at all possible. Decline the work with something like "I cannot put my name to a site designed in this way as it contravenes almost everything I know and I would be doing you a disservice if I continued" type response. This can sometimes illustrate how strong you feel on the subject.

There are often very few clients who you cannot turnaround or show the light, but there will always be a few. You always have the choice whether your name shows on the site or whether you include it into your portfolio or whether you take the job on. For me as long as your head can hit the pillow and you can sleep well each day knowing you did your best, I see no problem taking the money off someone who is simply uncapable of taking any advice. How many people leave their daily jobs cause they don't agree with their bosses idea? Very few I expect, treat this in the same vain.

No matter how much you try to leave a trail in order to prove that you tried to advise the guy the correct way, if it all goes tits up, you will always be blamed. So accept that fact (or refuse the job) and do not waste any time trying to prove you did your job, it is simply more wasted time.

[gabrielcrowe]

I too have found this kind of problem.

I'm trapped with a particularly awkward client at the moment, their problem is one if lack of images and data, but the basic premise is the same.

The designer knows what works and the client thinks that their real world product translates directly to the web without any changes. In my case I'm working with well over 260k products and i don't have the luxury of long pages as an option.

My solution will be to set a final deadline, and make sure that whatever they choose will stick, until a set time. For example, you have a week to decide, and after your choice is made, then you cannot change this page for at least 3 months.

See what he says.

[chris ashdown]

I find it hard to understand that you cannot convince a customer of the benifits of doing it another way, be it SEO , Finding the item, Sorting by type, manufacture, price etc, time to load, drop out rates, etc

I am suprised you have the skills to make the sites but not to put the benifits across to a dumbo

[RuralWeb]

and with the current climate, getting work is a nightmare
YOU ARE VERY WRONG - web design work has never been better as every business must have a website and those that dont are now realising they have missed the boat a little.

You say you are looking for work - you use Actinic I presume - yet you have no link to your website so members can find you and request quotes. Most of the designers on the forum are booked up months in advance (Ive actually been closed for two years now:eek:) and have no problem with getting work. I was asked to do a Curry House, Laundry and fashion shop yesterday so the work is there you need to market yourself, then you can work with clients who listen;)

[Chunkford]

Thanks for the replies guys/gals
I have met him half way, and going to offer the 'Show all products' as an addition to having normal sections as well - Phew, i thought it was going to be a nightmare.

Mal - I hang my head in shame. I have been lazy with creating my site. Never really needed to until now. Time to pull my finger out and get it sorted. 2009 here we come!

[gabrielcrowe]

show all products for that many products is still a bit daft.

customers for the site will have to be complete gonks to scroll them all.

[Chunkford]

Tell me about it, but at least it's made him happy, and me happy!
The last thing i want to do is to start making silly sites that gives me a bad name!

[grantglendinnin]

show all products for that many products is still a bit daft.

customers for the site will have to be complete gonks to scroll them all.

Agreed - though a compromise is better than nothing. Another step in the right direction would be to advise your client to use a sorting tool.

Norm has a perfect tool: The Actinic Product Sort (http://www.drillpine.biz/actinicstuff/index.html) Tool (Sorted Products / Sections) ;)